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Post Info TOPIC: I beam


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I beam


What do you folks think of this idea.

There is a lolly column in my workshop that is in the way - and of course I back into it, walk into it or try to move my table saw around it. The builder installed it where two pieces of 8" I-beam meet so something has to be there. It isn't welded together (it should be) and for what it supports above, probably should be 10 or 12 inch, but isn't nor will it be. I want to move the lolly about 4 feet. This means I need to make the seam solid. I can weld it, but would rather 'fish plate' the seam with 2 pieces of 6" I-beam with a bunch of 1/2" grade 5 or 8 bolts holding it all together. I'm also considering a piece of 1/4" plate on the bottom though welded in place, but that may be overkill. When everything is nice and solid, I pull the lolly and remove my 2 big house jack columns (yes, I actually have 5-6 of them), reinstall the old lolly column and enjoy a lot more useable space.

Sound like a plan ---- or a dream?



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Dave W (Irelands Child/IC2)

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sounds "SOUND" and "LOGICAL" to me, Yank
Notice that I didn't mention pics this time?

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IF I'm reading this correctly,, This is a 8" I beam that supports the ceiling ( floor above)?? but you don't want to weld the joint? but you ARE willing to weld on a fish plate on the bottom,, I don't quite understand how you would fish plate the 8" I beam with a 6" I beam,,

I would get a 1/2" or even 3/8 thick ,,length of plate wide enough and long enough ( maybe 12-16 ")  to fish plate the 8" beam on both sides ( along the edges of the 8" beam..Boxing it in ) and on the bottom,

what is the reason you don't want to weld the seam on the bottom?  actually if you just welded the 8" beam on both sides and across the bottom should be suffecent,, but a little over kill would be wise too I think,,,, They probably didn't have a welder handy when they built the house, and figured it was good enough with the Post ( LOLLY is that a eastern term? for post)

a picture would be nicebiggrinbiggrinbiggrinbiggrinbiggrinbiggrinbiggrinbiggrin



-- Edited by Bad Rat on Wednesday 13th of November 2013 01:15:21 PM

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I'd be inclined to do some serious welding on this one.  First, weld up the joint where the two eight inch beams meet; insulate the floor joists with some wet canvas and keep it wet while you are welding.  Then cut three six inch wide by two foot long  3/8" thick plates and drill six 3/4" holes along each edge and four down the center, and fishplate the web section of the eight inch beam on both sides, and on the bottom, welding the holes (plug welding), and an inch long bead every other inch along the edges starting at the corners on the web plates, and a solid perimeter bead on the bottom plate.  That is the way we used to repair cracked heavy trailer rails, although we used a lot heavier material.  Depending on the span, you might be able to eliminate the column altogether.



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Good info guys.

Rrumbler - hopefully this house wont flex like a trailer so I shouldn't need 'heroic' strength measures and I'm moving the existing column only ~3-4 feet

OK - couldn't find any 6" channel but some really heavy stuff so will be using 3/8" plate instead but have to go to another supplier to get some so it will be a few days before it gets done. I didn't say it, but will be welding the two 'I' beams together - the web is only 1/4". I'll be fish plating it and bolting it all together with a bunch of Gr 8's. I may even tack the plates in place and the nut on the bolts, but 3/8" with my little Lincoln MIG 120VAC welder is a stretch for good penetration. That lolly - has to be there as the span with 8" between the two on either side will just be too big - 20 feet - and why I said above that it probably should have been 10 or 12 inch channel for the size house.

BR - lolly (or lally) column is probably more of an East Coast term, but it is an adjustable round tube support column for structures. Google it and you will come back with over 155,000 hitsevileyeevileyeevileye



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Dave W (Irelands Child/IC2)

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Dave, what is above the I beam?

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A 2x6 along the I beam then the first floor joists at 90 degrees to that  (and part of the reason for my reluctance to weld)



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Dave W (Irelands Child/IC2)

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That had crossed my mind - - - - I've welded bracing in horse trailer floors before with someone standing by with a garden hose to squelch the smoking wood but that doesn't sound like an option for you, eh? biggrinbiggrinbiggrin  Maybe the bolting the plate, as mentioned above, and tack welds at the bottom away from the 2x6 might be a better option for you????



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What kind of span are we talking? If you're adding 4' to 12', that's a big increase. If you're adding 4' to 20', that's not so much.

In other words, is the beam capable of spanning the extra distance, or should it be beefed up full length? What spans 12' easily, may well droop when it's spanning 16', a lousy 4' more.

Are there any load bearing walls supported by the beam? Quite often, starting with the column in the basement, a load bearing column or support might extend all the way to the roof. If that's the case, the measly 4' can be huge as what was once supported directly, all the way to the footing, is now supported by a beam with air under it.

Speaking of footings, at least in this state, there are footings poured under those columns. Usually in the neighborhood of 2' square and a foot thick.

I moved one in the basement of my first house, but added one heck of a beam along side what was there to clear the distance, then put a 4' piece of 4x4x1/2 square tube under the column to spread the load over a large part of the concrete floor as it was no longer setting on a proper footing.

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Dale - I hear you and understand where you are coming from but will be giving this a try. That post will have a decent foot on it to spread the floor load, the beam will be even stronger by far in that one place. This is not something I am undertaking lightly, having lived here about 20 years, banging into that existing lolly column and cursing it loudly. As far as a footing installed by the builder - wouldn't bet on that when he 'owned' the town and the building dept at the time when these homes were built. If I may, relate a couple of things I've fixed where his building practices failed. The garage ceiling/loft/roof, a ~27x27 foot empty room. No middle support, wood or steel, loft floor joists - 2x8. The roof is conventional stick built 2x6. I added a built up 2x12 beam with 3/4 ply sandwiched in the middle, supported by two heavy (not the light version) lollys. From the garage attic/loft to the roof, I then added a similar beam as below, but of 2x6 and studded from below. These beams were jacked into place over a period of several weeks using several of my big building jacks, removing the 4-5 inch roof ridge span sag. The roof over the BR has also been fixed in a similar fashion. The 16x20 back porch also had a new built up beam as well as, in this case, supported by a 4x6 treated to a 4' deep Sonotube footer. The house back hall ...... well you get the picture. I didn't do these mods without a bunch of thought and even some advice from a couple of builders.

Now, the fish plate material 3/8x6x18 hot roll bar stock, eight 1/2-13 bolts per half or a total of 16. I also have a piece of 1/4x4x18 for the bottom of the channel, but may it may not be used, welding instead - and all for a total of approximately $50 for material (steel is expen$ive these days). I've drilled the holes to 1/4 and will mark then drill the beam. I'll also be welding the two sections of beam but not the plates to it as said above, I'm not sure of decent penetration.

BUT, before all that, I need to replace a leaking shower drain - which meant cutting a hole in the dining room ceiling to remove the bad one/install the new one. The no leak drains do after 12-15 years !!!!!!!! Of course, there is that 3rd batch of leaves that came down in the wind yesterday to dispose of along with the RV that still needs to be covered.

I'm rambling and am now off to 'work'.



-- Edited by Dave W on Friday 15th of November 2013 08:40:44 AM

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A home improvement project always requires some type of new desperately needed piece of equipment,, which in this case would be a 220V welder,, wire feed of course

just the price of home repair these days ya know,,,,,biggrinbiggrin



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Bad Rat wrote:

A home improvement project always requires some type of new desperately needed piece of equipment,, which in this case would be a 220V welder,, wire feed of course

just the price of home repair these days ya know,,,,,biggrinbiggrin


 Yeah Bill, those DIY projects usually are a good excuse  but this 'gadget' got most of my kids inheiritance along with any new tools ready cash:

 

Then there is that $570 bucks my wife spent yesterday for tile for the kitchen counter tops - a procrastinated job left over from last fallconfuseconfuse



-- Edited by Dave W on Saturday 16th of November 2013 04:36:00 PM



-- Edited by Dave W on Saturday 16th of November 2013 04:39:09 PM

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Yeah a mans gotta have his toys,,  but a woman usually finds a way to postpone those toys sometimes,,,

I find that its easier to follow what my needs are, and worry about the consensuses later,, works most of the time,, but hiding large objects isn't always easy to pull off,,,  confuseI actually think she has given up ,  ON ME THAT ISbiggrinbiggrinwinkwinkwinkwink 



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I hear ya, Dave. The "barn" that came with this place is a freaking disaster, not waiting to happen, it already has. It's really scabbed together, and little by little I was getting it straightened out. Well, I never did get the 2" lean out of the north wall. Then my hip decided it didn't want to any longer, and now..........................

Sounds like you've put some thought to it. I pointed out what I thought might need addressing, from there, it's your problem! LOL No seriously......

The fish plate sounds kinda short. The longer it is, the less "sheer" there is on the fasteners and welds, but, with enough of them....... Me? I'm lazy? I go longer with fewer holes to drill. LOL

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Dale - length was calculated using this 'formula':

Web width is 8", web thickness is 1/4" therefore everything used to reinforce that web needed to be at least 2x those dimensions. So using that 'formula', the thickness of the plates is 3/8 x 2 = 3/4" or a 50% 'safety' factor (it's actually more, but for this discussion, ok) and the length 18" or a 'safety' factor of 24% or 12%/side of the joint. Bolting - so far, 6/side, 1/2" then 2/side 3/8 though will probably change those to 1/2" making a total of 8/side or 4 solid inches of through the web steel torqued to 95 lb ft which gives each a clamping load of about 9050 pounds per bolt (I'm using Gr 5 bolts). Add in the welding, to solidify things even more. Then if felt necessary, add in the bottom 1/4" plate. The actual distance I'll be moving the lolly column is 33" - so in my less then learned opinion, I wont have a problem. Oh and I'll be measuring to see if I have any sag though I doubt I'll see any.

Other projects have pulled me away from this one - i.e. that second floor shower drain that dripped water into the dining room. I had to break through the DR ceiling plus the wall behind the shower to dry things out then access the drain flange. This meant I've had to spread drywall dust through out the house to my wife's joyful noisesnonono. Then @#$% oak tree leaves that are just now falling needed to be blown into the woods, and of course the wind has 'helped' me .........



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Formula?

I use the, "That should be about right" then double it to be sure technique. Never had anything come down yet! LOL

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Both great methods no doubt, however, I use the "wonder what I've got in the scrap pile method ".



-- Edited by Mello Yello on Tuesday 19th of November 2013 06:36:43 PM

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With all those gusset plates,, I would bet you could remove that post completely and not have a problem,, BUT I AM NOT A STRUCTURAL ENGINEER, so therefore use you're own educated guess,,  probably best to go with you're original plan,,biggrinbiggrinbiggrinbiggrinbiggrinbiggrin I'm just using up space here to have something to do,, too cold to go outside and do something constructive .  



-- Edited by Bad Rat on Thursday 21st of November 2013 01:17:41 PM

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I understand about being chilly out - 'twas 17* at 730 this morning when I took the pup out for her constitutional and only about 38* now so am finishing my shower drain project - painting the corner of the ceiling that I had to break through for access. I should do the entire ceiling but my DW is 'contemplating' other work in there first.

Which reminds me - what I thought were Gr5 bolts were Gr???? so went out and got the Gr8 that I really should have (dang they got expensive!!). That project will get some more attention over the weekend (Sunday is supposed to be only about 25/28*).



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Damn!!!  25-28* we must be having a heat wave then,, its 35* outside now, I must be getting like Geezer,, but we don't normally have weather this cold.. but the skiers like it cause they were running over each other to get to the new snow on Mt Hood,,  got 20 some " one day this week 

 

 usually the grade 8's have the marking lines on the head



-- Edited by Bad Rat on Thursday 21st of November 2013 01:57:54 PM

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Bad Rat wrote:

 usually the grade 8's have the marking lines on the head



-- Edited by Bad Rat on Thursday 21st of November 2013 01:57:54 PM


 It was my fault. I asked for Gr5, didn't look at them before I got home so got Gr ??. I've got Gr8 now, complete with all 6 lines on the head. Dumazz clerks (and customers who don't bother looking, a s s u m i n g they got the right thing).



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Most clerks I have run across lately, are there NOT because they know anything about what they are selling,, but because they are willing to accept low wages and no benefits,,, most can't even speak English,,

The True Value hardware store I always use is family owned and the young man I go too if I can't find something  special is the owners son  , grew up working in that store since he was a kid,, now his dad has health problems and has turned the whole thing over to him,,

anything special I need,, he will do his best to get it  for me,,, can't beat that with a stick,,, biggrin



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We've still got "ONE" True Value store in Willis, 8 miles from us, that has an "older gentlemen" there who has probably worked there since it was started and maybe even before it became a True Value Store. When I need something that I can't find myself, I just bypass all the others and go straight to him. So far I have NEVER been disappointed with the results. I was having some extra keys made for the '62 Fairlane and the young lady couldn't find the right blank so the older gentleman said "what year is it?" and then he said just use a ??????? and that should work- - - and IT DID. Sorry for the hi-jack, Dave.

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There was a decent hardware store a couple miles from me - went out of business because of the owner's stupidity. One time I went in there for something strange and the young clerk was helping me. The owner came over, gave the kid holy he11 for helping me rather then dusting or some other dumb thing WHILE THE KID WAS HELPING ME. I turned around and walked out - smoke coming from my ears. Got out to the car - turned around and went back in, asked the owner if we could go into his office where I proceeded to remind him (in less then nice words) that a customer comes first and the fact that this kid was being chewed out in front of me was absolutely the wrong way to do business and would be something that would help kill his business. They closed up and disappeared within a month. We have a couple ACE hardwares where I go along with, occasionally, a Tractor Supply for acceptable fasteners, both of which have useless clerks. If I need lots of different kinds along with some drill bits and other things, I'll order from McMaster Carr and they will be here the next day actually cheaper via UPS when you calculate in the gas, NY sales tax and time. Fastenal is a few miles away - their prices are ridiculous if they even have stock or a clerk that doesn't mind helping.

Now, since it's raining today and cold weather coming in tomorrow, might even have a chance to work on that project.



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I forgot how long it took to lay out 16 holes then drill 12 of them to 1/2" and 4 to 7/16" with a small drill press. Then after having that much fun, to place those two matched steel pieces on something to layout and drill 16 more holes to match exactly - which 8 of them did. The other 8 had to be 'reamed' with the 1/2 drill bit to clean up that alignment and install the rest of the bolts. The beam is pretty solidly tack welded together. Tomorrow I'll torque to Gr 8 spec, add some penetrating grade LocTite and tack the 8 plate corners to the I beam.

THEN <drum roll> it's time to pull that lolly column and move it to its new home.



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WHEW!!!! That made me tired just reading it,,, I have trouble hitting holes myself,,  garage must have heat???????????????

biggrin



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Bad Rat wrote:

WHEW!!!! That made me tired just reading it,,, I have trouble hitting holes myself,,  garage must have heat???????????????

biggrin


 Heck, I'm whupped. A 20 minute shower at just below lobster boil helped though. Standing on a step ladder leaning into a good size drill does a job on this OFs body.

That shop is in my basement along with a my car shop. Toasty at whatever temp I need - especially when it's 26*F right now according to the thermometer plus there is some fuzzy white stuff blowing around outside. I also put in the insulated winter garage door opening panels today which are a 4x9, 2x4 framed piece and two 3x4'6" pieces which helps keep the shop nicely heated.



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If you're trying to make us feel lazy and shiftless, then it ain't working ! no



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Mello Yello wrote:

If you're trying to make us feel lazy and shiftless, then it ain't working ! no


 Yes it does work,, I'm beat from just reading that,,, time for a nap,,,,



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Bad Rat wrote:
Mello Yello wrote:

If you're trying to make us feel lazy and shiftless, then it ain't working ! no


 Yes it does work,, I'm beat from just reading that,,, time for a nap,,,,


 

Just a day of retirement in my home. Couldn't rake leaves, too much wind. Can't cover the camper, wind so just puttered around the house.

Today, I might even watch part** of a football game in my La-Z-Boy with an adult beverage since it's a whopping 13*F with an inch of that fuzzy white stuff outside

 

(**probably snooze through the restbiggrin)



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Dave W wrote:
Today, I might even watch part** of a football game in my La-Z-Boy with an adult beverage since it's a whopping 13*F with an inch of that fuzzy white stuff outside  (**probably snooze through the restbiggrin)

 Now you're talking - - - - you might also put it in Caps and in the Recipe Section so the Ladies could easily find it.



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OK. Now especially for Em's edification, a few photos:

One photo 'got lost' showing the 'assembly' without the jack to the right of the original. The new lolly is actually a very heavy duty builders house jack instead of a normal flimsy welded tube column. There is no sag - 87 11/16 - both before and after. The move was 30-1/2". And yes, I believe there is a separate footer for the original contrary to what I thought. Oh well!!! When (IF) we sell, I can install a column back to the original place to satisfy any inspection. I'll tack the plate to the beam and screw to the floor once I'm sure that nothing will move. The 1/2" bolts are torqued to 100#, the 4 7/16 Gr5 are torqued to 55#

This move actually opens a bunch of formerly useless-beyond-stacking-junk space plus lets me have better use of the drill press and the table saw.

(How do you like the way the builder clamped the steel to the wood, photo 2 - not really my way of doing that)

 

 



-- Edited by Dave W on Sunday 24th of November 2013 12:18:38 PM

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Ah Ha, the old "lap under lock and pray" nailing technique ! biggrin

SERIOUSLY DAVE, that is very nice work there - - - well thought out and well done - - - holes are very uniform and professional looking - - - actually they look like 2 double 10 dominos   However, I'm still in shock at seeing "Actual" pics of your projects - - - this could get to be fun.  Thanks for sharing, now get a brew and take a break I hate to drink alone.



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Wow !!!! that there is some FANTASTIC PROFESSIONAL work...  like I mentioned before,, I think you could eliminate that post completely,, but still be able to reinstall it if necessary for code,,,   nice work !!!!!!   biggrinbiggrinbiggrinbiggrinbiggrin 

Just wondering tho????  How wide is the beam span on you're garage, I was just wondering why they had to use a second piece of I beam??   confuseconfuse



-- Edited by Bad Rat on Sunday 24th of November 2013 05:38:13 PM

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Bad Rat wrote:

Wow !!!! that there is some FANTASTIC PROFESSIONAL work...  like I mentioned before,, I think you could eliminate that post completely,, but still be able to reinstall it if necessary for code,,,   nice work !!!!!!   biggrinbiggrinbiggrinbiggrinbiggrin 

Just wondering tho????  How wide is the beam span on you're garage, I was just wondering why they had to use a second piece of I beam??   confuseconfuse



-- Edited by Bad Rat on Sunday 24th of November 2013 05:38:13 PM


 Thanks - but you don't see the pigeon dropping weldsevileye

Just for the heck of it, I'll have to measure the 2-3  pieces of 'I' steel that were used (thats the room on the other side of that wall with the photo of the red deuce).

This is that garage shop 3-4 years ago and showing the I beam and lolly that's in there:



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DONE!!!!

OK - first of all, to answer BR's question, the width between the poured outside wall and the first lolly in the garage area is ~14', with the garage being just over 15 feet wide. The beam itself is 21 feet long butted up to another that looks like it's the same length but it is boxed in with wood, so no idea if there is another joint.

I cut the old column off - it had ~2 feet filled with cigarette butts - someone had a really b-a-a-a-d habit, lagged the new one to the floor but left the top free as it had been with the original. It may have a couple bolts added eventually, but 40+ years without ..... I found some concrete of some sort and patched the hole

The amount of gained useable shop space is amazing.

Butts:

Lotsa space:



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WOW, AJWD, Dave - - - -


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Mello Yello wrote:

WOW, AJWD, Dave - - - -


 Thanks Em. It ended up as a fun but tougher job then expected.

 I have to use that extra space for a few projects now - like finally, a year later then planned, the kitchen counter and floors. Tile is on order, flooring picked out, new gas stove and dishwaher being considered to match the almost new reefer plus all new lighting. Then I get to do some fun stuff on my '31 Fordevileye



-- Edited by Dave W on Monday 25th of November 2013 07:40:25 PM

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Dave W (Irelands Child/IC2)

Quando omni flunkus, moritati (When all else fails, play dead - R Green)



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That's going to take you all weekend to dobiggrin



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Bad Rat wrote:

That's going to take you all weekend to dobiggrin


 At least Saturday - but don't forget IT IS Black Friday weekend for shoppingdisbeliefdisbeliefdisbeliefdisbelief



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Dave W (Irelands Child/IC2)

Quando omni flunkus, moritati (When all else fails, play dead - R Green)



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Dave W wrote:
Bad Rat wrote:

That's going to take you all weekend to dobiggrin


 At least Saturday - but don't forget IT IS Black Friday weekend for shoppingdisbeliefdisbeliefdisbeliefdisbelief


 AIN'T NO WAY IN HELL!!  you could get me to even consider going anywhere on Black Friday,,, being around that many CRAZY women  in one place, would be insane,nononononononononocrycrycrycry



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Bad Rat wrote:
Dave W wrote:
Bad Rat wrote:

That's going to take you all weekend to dobiggrin


 At least Saturday - but don't forget IT IS Black Friday weekend for shoppingdisbeliefdisbeliefdisbeliefdisbelief


 AIN'T NO WAY IN HELL!!  you could get me to even consider going anywhere on Black Friday,,, being around that many CRAZY women  in one place, would be insane,nononononononononocrycrycrycry


 My travels from home will be a lone trip to the dump.
I only wish it was just women bumping into me, but the men have gotten as bad (think Home Depot, Lowe's, Best Buy)



-- Edited by Dave W on Tuesday 26th of November 2013 12:30:07 PM

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Dave W (Irelands Child/IC2)

Quando omni flunkus, moritati (When all else fails, play dead - R Green)



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Nice work on that beam, Dave, it looks like it will work just dandy; I sure wouldn't worry about it if it was mine.

About this "black Friday" thing: I seldom go near any of those places any time, unless I absolutely need to, why in he77 would I want to go on a day when idiots are supposed to be allowed to take over?  I probably won't leave the house; ain't been goin' out much anyhow, of late, kind'a hidin' under my hat it seems - not feelin' up to snuff.



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Dave W wrote:
Mello Yello wrote:

WOW, AJWD, Dave - - - -


 Thanks Em. It ended up as a fun but tougher job then expected.



 

 

Aren't they always?  biggrin



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Farwell, Michigan

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